Palme d’Or winner, legendary auteur and Berlinale honorary bear, Ken Loach has made close to 30 feature films over the course of his politically charged, impassioned career. His latest outing- the post Irish civil war drama Jimmy’s Hall- is said to be his last. I met up with the soft spoken maverick in the decadent courtyard of Charlottenberg’s Savoy hotel to talk World Cup woes; socialist struggles; his latest effort; and Bishop Brennan getting kicked up the arse.
This is your second
film to focus on Ireland in 8 years. What is it about that particular period of
Irish history which attracts you?
The relationship between England and Ireland is very
important I think. It was England’s first colony and it’s our last. For 800 years
they’ve intervened in Irish life, and the violence has been done by the British
to the Irish although it’s presented as the other way around. And how the
British treated the Irish, how they subjugated them, and all the problems they
created, it’s a classic case of imperialism. Even down to the civil war, when
the British supported one side to maintain their interests. It illustrates
everything about imperialism.
Was it necessary to
look back in order to tell a story like this?
The people there were very clear, you had the community; you
had the church in opposition; you had the landlords in opposition. And that
unity of economic power and organized religion succeeded in closing down that
free expression. It’s just a tin hut in a country field and you can tell that
story about controlling consciousness just in that very simple diagrammatic
way.
And the controllers, in
this case, are the police and church.
Well I think there’s a phrase quoted in the film of “the
masters and the pastors” and I think that’s more accurate as it is economic
power. I think they’re called the gombeen
men; the manipulators; the ones who see a chance to make a quick buck. What
they call entrepreneurs...
(sighs)
but of course the church has taken a big knock now.
Did you have any
qualms with getting Jim Norton in as a clergyman again?
Well, I didn’t but I did hear about Father Ted, kicking Bishop Brennan up the arse. So a lot of people
chuckled, but I hadn’t seen it, so I didn’t have a qualm.
Dance plays a role in
the film too, what’s the importance of it in Jimmy’s Hall?
The Irish dance had a function which was identified with the
struggle for independence because it was native Irish culture. But then it
became something the church wanted to control and the church intervened in
disapproving of certain types of Irish dance which were more free form. But
jazz was something completely abhorrent to the church because it meant close
proximity of bodies; it was associated with a sort of moral collapse so, of
course, people liked it all the more.
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| My best attempt at a paparazzi photo following the Jimmy's Hall press screening at Cannes. |
Your politics and film-making have always, uncompromisingly, gone hand in hand. Had you ever considered
another path? Did the blockbusters ever come knocking?
Well that also has a political position and the political
position is that the U.S. defends peace and freedom and they can solve all your
problems with their guns. If that’s not political I don’t know what is. But it
is very difficult to make a serious film and not show some aspects of society
and therefore have some ideas about that society.
and if you hadn’t
found film making?
Well, I’d just put on
the football.
But really, there are always political things to get
involved in and you could spend your whole life doing that. I don’t seek them
out but it’s very difficult to turn away from them. I mean the Israel-Palestine
thing at the moment, for which many of us feel completely impotent, but you do
what you can in terms of organizing in your own country to show support to the
Palestinians.
Speaking of football,
how did the situation in Brazil, for you personally, affect the World Cup?
Well the opposition was absolutely understandable, and
important, I wasn’t involved in that so I don’t know the people. But inevitably
the football takes over, it’s the way of the world, if you’re watching a game
you want to know who’s going to score! But I wanted Brazil to win.
Even over England?
Well once they were knocked out...
So, after five
days...
(laughs) Yeah, you can’t be too pompous about these things-
not to undervalue the campaign against spending the money, I absolutely
supported that but football’s football in the end.
The tournament
brought up a discussion, here in Berlin, about nationalism. Jimmy’s Hall shows nationalism in a much
different light. Is it something people
should shy away from?
The whole issue of nationalism is very complicated, isn’t it?
Because when it’s anti-imperialist it’s necessary, because you have to maintain
your separate identity, and a freedom from oppression means cherishing your own
culture. But also then, as we know, it has its bad side when it’s opposed to
internationalism. It’s how you define it, from what function it has. James
Connolly wrote “The cause of Ireland is the cause of labour and the cause of
labour is the cause of Ireland”.
Time and time again,
it’s that working class you choose to focus on. Can you explain why?
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| Loach shoots Leitrim for Jimmy's Hall |
Well I guess there are two answers to that. First of all the
working class have the best jokes. They’re just more interesting and more fun
and they live life closer to the edge, so the stakes are higher for them. If
things go wrong then it can be a matter of life and death whereas for a
bourgeois family, they have a lot of cushions around them. But you also have to
consider; the working class is the revolutionary class and if change is to
happen it will come from the working class. It won’t come from the bourgeoisie
saying ‘we’ll give up our wealth in order for you to have a better life’.
But is that
solidarity still there, now that the so-called working class aspire to such
material things too?
You can’t expect to get a socialist consciousness in a
capitalist country, it’s an idealistic thing. But of course people aspire to
things. They aspire to a proper job. They aspire to a home. They aspire to
being looked after when they’re sick. And all those things are getting less and
less available. And it’s because they aspire to these things that they will
fight for their job. And it’s in that fight where they will realise they are in
a class situation, and that’s how they develop.
Even with
globalisation and increased individualism and all the rest?
It’s a huge struggle but I don’t think history has ended, do
you? The problem that the present system has got is that actually we are destroying
the planet, so for once there’s an end game. When Marx was writing you imagined
that the world would go on indefinitely. It won’t now; we know it won’t. And I
think that will crystallize peoples’ minds.
Jimmy’s Hall looks at an idealistic moment or, perhaps, a loss of such
ideals. It’s a recurring theme in your more strictly political films. Do you
think the more jaded countries in the west can ever rediscover such ideals?
I think they probably can. The rise of the far right in some
countries shows people are pretty desperate. But it depends how they’re
presented and it’s a lot of work, because you’re combating a prevailing
consciousness which is all about cynicism and telling people they have no
power; that everything has to be in private hands; that the interests of the
big corporations have to dominate everything. So when the whole weight of
public discussion is saying that; to fight it is a lot of work. So you’ve gotta
get out there. It can certainly be done, but it’s an uphill effort.
For further reading, my Cannes review of Jimmy's Hall can be found here.
